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Poster: orchiddoctor Date: Jun 2, 2006 1:09pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: dead.net

I apologize if you missed my point. I've been trading dead shows since 1970, and I think trading is great. I also support archives and am sorry that the sbds had to be removed.

BUT: all of the anger of last November/December failed to take into account that Dead.net is a business. Unfortunately, it is now a failed business in part because too many freebies were suddenly available in an instant.

It used to be fun to visit heads and copy tapes while enjoying a good pipe or ten--but this sudden availibilty of so much--well, on the one hand, how wonderful; on the other, it it help put dead.net out of business.

I posted not because archive.org was responsible (I downloaded my fair share) or because I'm in love with greedy capitalists, but because after you let all the horses out of the barn, the barn goes bellyup.

Sure, it's as much the Dead's fault for being naive enough to let so many sbds out. Our fortune, their loss. But they do have the right to profit from their work.

Imagine if the cops in your town winked and turned away if you lit up a joint; then imagine what they would do if ten thousand of you did so in unison. The dead always gave us a wink; we became the anarchists that Hunet refers to.

My point is that the great tempest in a teapot of last year failed to acknowledge the fact that the surviving members were suddenly seeing ALL of their work disappear.

Look: trade away! Trading dead tapes is a tradition almost as old as the band. But, when it starts to get out of hand, there are consequences. All I'm saying is that nothing comes for free. The "leaked" Winterland box might have been very tasty indeed--but where is it now? God knows that I don't give a toot about dead golf shirts, but it was a treat to find crispy DPs or downloads or Vault copies of shows I went to or wish I had.

And, while I don't think Bobby needs more money . . . .
And, yes, the corporate dead is pretty naive . . . .
But I'm sad to see it go belly up.

As Hunter put it, it was a failed experiment in Democracy.

It's sad, that's all.

God bless all you mad tapers.



This post was modified by orchiddoctor on 2006-06-02 20:09:46

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Poster: liranfa Date: Jun 2, 2006 1:47pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: dead.net

This is an unfortunate occurance and am deeply saddened by it but I do feel that if the band would have come forth and worked with the "Dead Community" or what's left of it, that they could have gotten a lot of support. As a long time supporter of the band, I feel that since Jerry passed, there's been very little of the band reaching out to the fans and communicating what would help them and what they could do for the fans in return. All I can say is that it appears that the situation is getting uglier by the day.

Even though I downloaded and shared many soundboards, I continued to support the band by buying the Dick's Picks series and downloads to try and do my part. Still, with the exception of Phil Lesh, I feel like there's very little communication between the band and their fans. The music used to bind us all together and now it seems to be tearing us apart.

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Poster: profadrock Date: Jun 4, 2006 10:05am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: dead.net

I do see your logic...The problem is that this is a barn that never should have held the horses anyway...The downside to treating music as a non-proprietary, free, ownerless experience is that it's hard to go back, and you're seeing the backlash.

But in the end, they were right in their original thinking, that music is ownerless...It's a shame that I've stunted the profitability of GDS (though I've bought over a dozen dick's picks and every video, etc., but the legacy I'm left with (owning pretty good copies of 1000's of shows and making dozens of friends doing so) sure beats the heck out of any business arrangement on Dead.net...

See Pearl Jam for an example...They stopped selling CD's and set up a free streaming experience...granted, they still have a viable revenue source from touring, but I've spent enough moolah on Ratdog and Phil&Friends to think that the grateful dead world is still turning a profit!

In the end, the only folks who deserve our wrath are those trying to profit over the beautiful music that poured out of clubs, arenas, and stadiums all those years...

BTW, RIP Vince...I'm sure that he, Pig, Keith, and Jerry are making great music (which I'll someday find on archive!!???)

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Poster: orchiddoctor Date: Jun 4, 2006 9:03pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: dead.net

Again: I'm not in love with Dead.net per se. And I have benefited from archive.org and still do. Of course it's waaaay to late to lock up the barn. But, it's a good lesson in the can't have your cake and eat it too department.

I really wrote my post to say that those who mourn the passing of Dead.net should realize that this was what the band was trying to tell us last year. Well, each to his own opinion.

As to Pearl Jam, THEY do not provide streaming concerts. They are the progenetors of releasing (nearly) every show in SBD form within a few days FOR A PRICE. Like most bands who followed their self bootleg approach, the have switched to downloads, but they still charge as much as the Dead do. Some of their stuff can be downladed for free, but only AFTER that concert CD has sold out. They locked the barn door before the horses all got out. They own the horses, but you can ride them for a fair price.

That's the error the dead made--business-wise. With so much free music on the net, who wants to buy all the DPs? SOme of us, but not nearly as many as might have otherwise. Now there are no free sbd downloads AND there may be no more DPs, etc, for quite some time. Who wins?
Only those who managed to get what they wanted before the doors were shut.

All in all, it's really just an interesting example of a band's kindness turning around and biting them on the ass.

I suppose in the long run, "It doesn't matter anyway."

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Poster: profadrock Date: Jun 5, 2006 7:15am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: dead.net

I wasn't sure if you liked em, but Pearl Jam has moved on from the bootleg sales and has set up what I described, a free, streaming site...check out pearljamlive.com!

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Poster: orchiddoctor Date: Jun 5, 2006 8:57am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: dead.net

The only group of the past decade that I truly like--especially the new cd. The link you posted is actually a privately run fan site. You'll notice that what's on it are sbds from 2000 and 2003 that are out of print, and older stuff that has been in the public domain. There are no sbd 2005 or any 2006.

There is a second site, pj.sidewalkcrusaders.com , that hosts downloads of concerts from the beginning through the present with the same rules. 2005-6 are audience only. Although pj froms on dvds, there are a few sites to download these as well.

BUT all currently available material is off limits. If, for example you go www.the skyiscrape.com, there is an interestin complilation set covering a live version of each song, but no versions from officially avaible sources.

The point is that a)If you like pj., go and feast, b) they have beaten the bootleggers and c)they have protected their interests without really interfering with their own market. It's a smart way to do things.

The dead just did it backwards, and that's what did them in.

Just imagine if you didn't have all those crispy boards what might have happened with the download series. Maybe 5 or more concerts a month?

BTW, for current pj downloads, go to bootlegs.pearljam.com

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Poster: profadrock Date: Jun 5, 2006 12:30pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: dead.net

Never realized the PJ was a fan site...Jeez, maybe it'll take a rabid dead fan with protools and bandwidth to do the remastering and streaming themself....(I think the dead resist this though...telling, in a way)

It's funny, I do wonder what the result would have been if I had gotten a few shows a year as opposed to 10-20/day for a few years...I ended up jaded and bypassing every "boring" setlist for something "unusual"...By now, another China Cat just doesn't do it for me, and I probably haven't listened well to over a third of it!

Phish is a good example...while I own hundreds of Auds, I only own a couple of dozen SBD's and am excited when a new one is issued...

I suppose it leads to the conclusion that many of us are collectors as much as listeners...

I suppose it's also just the law of diminishing returns...

What I said earlier I stick to, that Jerry and Co. would have seen this whole discussion as ludicrous in 1967...moot point, I know...

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Poster: midnight sun Date: Jun 5, 2006 1:27pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: dead.net

Allowing taping and trading significantly fueled the fire of deadhead sub-culture, which in turn led to their long term artistic and commercial success, as well as recent resurgences of "grateful deadedness" due to this and other web-sites.

The chickens or the eggs?

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Poster: orchiddoctor Date: Jun 5, 2006 2:41pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: dead.net

Both. But is there a difference between trading in the mail before the advent of the internet and the sudden escalation of availability and simplicity? Yes, chicken or the the egg: or more to Jerry's image of the dead: the serpent that feeds on itself (the worm oroborous). Pretty soon it consumes itself. It did.

Look: I think at this point they blew it and the archives should never have been shut down viz sbd download. Too late, boys. I'm really arguing against the Dead for their lack of forsight. They are ultimately the losers since a) all that stuff is in circulation and/or b) you can swipe streams with simple software. If you want it, you can get it. And go for it.

I am just personally sorry that dead.net but it because I am in the crowd that likes cleaned up, remixed, classic material--e.g. the Fillmore box set. It was so much better than the hissy, cut patched sbds. And there were things that the archives never had--like the Academy of Music DPs or the Fillmore east Feb 70 run I was at both of those runs, so what a treat for me personally.

Yes, chicken or the egg: but both are frued now, huh?

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Poster: glenn Date: Jun 7, 2006 1:07pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: dead.net

There is no way I ever adversely affected the Dead's finances: I bought tickets to every show I possibly could. I buy all their music I can. Downloading soundboards OR audios didn't cost the Dead anything at all. AT ALL. Zero.

And as poor as I am, I and millions like me would gladly feed or shelter any of the members of the Dead or their crew until they got back on their feet.

I didn't put anybody out of a job.

With the enormous wealth generated by the Dead, it's nobody's fault but theirs that they are hurting for money, and trying to take back what was freely given as a gift was a stupid idea in the first place.

Whatever the Dead have now, or ever DID have, they owe it all to the support of people like me. "I'm ready to give everything for anything I take"... but I can't run the Dead's business for them, they have to find some way of doing it that CAN make enough for them to live on, or get into a new line of work, or go on Social Security or beg or steal or starve just like everyone else.

ANYONE that tries to blame the Dead's financial woes on the fans, the tapers, the traders, or anyone but the Dead themselves is flat out full of crap. If I had half of what any of the band members paid in taxes this year I could probably live the rest of my life on it.

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Poster: orchiddoctor Date: Jun 7, 2006 4:53pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: dead.net

I don't recall as anyone BLAMED anyone. If I appeared to, I apologize. Yep, the wealth of free downloads was really amazing. You'll never see the likes again. Sorry they got removed, wish I'd gotten a few more, but that's life.

The point I'm leaning on is that the naivete of the Dead in allowing us to pick their golden eggs for free has come 'round to bite them on the ass. That's their problem. And noone here put them out of business. BUT that doesn't alter the fact that lessons can be learned.

Remember that Dick's Picks was launched after a crew member came to a band meeting with a fistful of illegal boots. The Dead realized that it was losing out on fair revenue and decided to market itself. Meanwhile, all these SBDS kept popping up. Suddenly they are right here free for all to share. Why the Dead didn't shut off the valve back then beats me--except to say it's that old artist's naivete again.

The band HAD the right to keep their property off the streets but chose not to. I think the archive was very admirable in hosting the boards and I think all the fans were justified in getting the stuff back at least in streaming format. No one is accusing you guys of wrongdoing or culpability. It is simply a logical suggestion that the proliferation of live material and the
poor marketing strategy appears to have halted the production of any new nuggets from the vaults. My concern ain't Bobby's back pockets. He's doing fine on hot sauce or whatever he's hawking.

What is sad is that because of this side and that, there may be no more great releases for now if ever AND there are no more SBD downloads on the archive.

Please tell me who won? Archive downloaders? No. Dead.net downloaders? Apparantly not. You? Me? Jerry?

No need for vitriolic flaming. Though I'm sure some is headed my way.

As a note: Sugarmegs.org is still streaming a lot of stuff that was once here but now gone.

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Poster: glenn Date: Jun 8, 2006 8:59am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: dead.net

NO. The band had absolutely no right to 'take back' the soundboards which were recorded on OUR equipment and using OUR tapes. The very fact that most of the good soundboards exist is that we taped them, digitized them and preserved them by circulating them in lossless format.

The archiving/circulating process is a superior archiving process to the Dead's hoard-them-in-a-vault-and-pray-they-don't-degrade process.

The Dead became huge across 3 generations in large part due to the fact that there was so much music out there for free for all to share.

As far as I am concerned, the Dead are welcome to have copies of any Dead music I have, and are welcome to sell it. I'll even buy it. What is not acceptable is to try to stop the free trading of what was ours as soon as it hit our tape decks.

MILLIONS of dollars worth of recording equipment was purchased specifically to record Dead shows, MILLIONS of dollars worth of tape was purchased, countless hours were spent by countless fans, sorting those tapes by quality, and preserving them by sharing them.

Whatever business model they choose to use is not the issue, the issue is that you can't legally 'take back' what wasn't yours, by which I mean the tapes WE taped, not the ones the Dead taped. They can sell them, but it's legally fishy to try to OWN them EXCLUSIVELY.

I don't feel one bit sorry for their financial problems, every single member of the Dead has wasted more money than I have earned in my whole life.

It would have been far more profitable to sell whatever they chose to sell, without trying to take back what they gave away already. That was a dumb move and it has alienated thousands of their most devoted fans.

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Poster: orchiddoctor Date: Jun 8, 2006 9:38am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: dead.net

"We" taped the soundboards? I don't think so. A lot of those sbs got out without the band's approval. Copies were loaned or given with the stricty understanding that they not be traded. Millions on taping equipment? Has anyone kicked your door in to confiscate a single tape? Noone has threatened you, questioned you, denyed you, or in any way attempted to diminish your right to upload/dowwnload audience tapes or to trade the sbs you have. So what's your beef? With me?
For saying that the dead were fools in the first place? That they made a choice and then found out that--for them--it was a bad one? Why not see the glass as half full, my friend, and that the dead were pretty damn generous with the goods? Hey--thanks guys for letting us record and thanks for letting us trade and download. Thanks, not %$## you. Do you always show this type of response to those who have been kind to you in the past? Those who did you favors and decided not to do anymore? Does saying no diminish all of the yes's?

Your anger is neither justified nor aimed in the right direction. I agree that it was lame of the powers that be to stop archive from hosting the sbds under the pretext that archive.org is "selling" them by taking in donations.
I would argue that the band should decide once and for all what it wants to release and have at it. Removing the Fillmore West sbds for the box set seems silly since the box set is complete, uncut, and remixed to perfection. I had all those sbds and jumped on the box immediately.

My point is that they shot themselves in the foot, not that anyone is wrong, evil, or malicious for downloading. The dead could have stopped internet downloads years ago, when it first started. They didn't; so too bad. I am not blaming anyone here for the direct demise of dead.net. I'm merely ponting out that they were sincere in their desire to curtail the downloading, not capricious or interesting in persecuting you or pissing you off or denying you what you incorrectly believe is your God (or Jerry) given right to take whatever you want or otherwise ruining your life. It's business, and if you won't accept the group's right to conduct business as it wishes, then boycott them, by all means.

But I see no purpose in getting your hackles up other than to show that you cannot be happy enough with what you did download. Do you get this angry when your parents take away the car keys?

Perhaps it's time to get a life?

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Poster: glenn Date: Jun 14, 2006 4:51am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: dead.net

I'll say it again:

The archiving/circulating process is a superior archiving process to the Dead's hoard-them-in-a-vault-and-pray-they-don't-degrade process.

The Dead would need hundreds of full-time curators to keep from losing a digit, we did it for them for free. The music will always be there for the Dead to sell because we spent so much time spreading it around.

That's a pretty good thank you right there.

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Poster: midnight sun Date: Jun 8, 2006 11:03am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: dead.net

...it's just that we hoped to go on believing it was about a whole lot more than just business...thats all.

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Poster: direwolf0701 Date: Jun 8, 2006 11:36am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: dead.net

i agree - i always hoped that myself. however, it appears that even when it seemed it was about a whole lot more than business, that was only because business was good. it seems to me that, since it's been almost 16 years since jerry's passing, the demand for the product in general has gone steadily downward. i don't know the numbers, but i see far far far fewer young people being interested in the dead than i did even 3 years ago. it has just gotten old. with such apparently shrinking interest, no wonder the GDP is in financial straights. i agree that it is no ones particular fault - it is just the way it is - the dead have just gotten "old" outside of the hardcore fans (and believe me, they were dwindling also, long before the sbd's were removed).

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Poster: orchiddoctor Date: Jun 8, 2006 11:49am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: dead.net

"the dead have just gotten "old""

Excellent point! Add to that there are different stages--the pigpen era, the Godchaux period, Brent, Vince (RIP all), and not everyone likes all the different "deads."
So, not everyone orders each D.P. And I hope noone orders those gold shirts (well . . . )

There are always bean counters. There was an interesting article in Rolling Stone in 1973 when Wake of the Flood came out. The article was titled (on the cover) The Corporate Dead. Nice contrast to Workingman's Dead a few years earlier. Garcia talked about the endless cycle of touring and office costs requiring more touring and so on just to pay the bills. Europe '72 was recorded (thank God!) to pay for the tour, a tour partially designed to sell more records. Remember, they "retired" in 1974 due to the grind of having to tour larger venues to pay for the wall of sound which was designed for larger venues and so on. All successful bands become business ventures whether they want to or not. The Dead were just more naive and hands off than others, a fact which Lenny Hart must have appreciated.

But the dead's "capitalist" venture allowed them to keep the mother rolling for thirty years!

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Poster: liranfa Date: Jun 7, 2006 6:21pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: dead.net

No offense but what seems to be lost on this post is the fact that Deadheads were notorious for their innovation and cleverness. If Archive had not allowed GD shows to be posted here then the Deadheads would have found a way to share them somewhere else. Furthermore, it has been admitted by the band that one of the main reasons they became so popular was the fact that they allowed tapes (soundboard or otherwise) of their shows to circulate. The reason dead.net went down is sheerly due to poor management and their general disconnect with the fans since Jerry passed.